I Approve Of Torture
September 30th, 2006 | by christine |I approve of torture.
At least, that’s what some people say.
I don’t understand Debbie’s vote on "the torture bill". I’ve turned it upside down and inside out and I still don’t get it. Don’t understand it. Don’t like it. Her official statement on the bill didn’t help me at all.
But unlike my friends at Michigan Liberal, I won’t be calling her a worthless piece of shit, or a partisan hack, or immoral. I won’t campaign or vote against her.
Why not? Because if there is one thing that I do understand, it’s that this vote exists in the context of Debbie’s overall record.
Debbie is rated 100% by Naral, NEA, APHA, and SANE, 90% by ARA, and 85% by AFL-CIO. And where the lower score is better, she’s rated 39% by the US Chamber of Commerce, 17% by CATO, and 0% by the Christian Coalition (thank God!).
Specifically, Debbie opposed
- the FMA
- banning gay adoptions
- ending affirmative action
- publicly funding private schools
- ANWR drilling
- CAFTA
- confirmation of Alito and Roberts
- repealing the estate tax,
- the war in Iraq
She supported the Kyoto protocols, funding public education, and raising the minimum wage.
Oh yeah, and she fought like hell to save Social Security … the program that kept my brother home with me and out of state supported foster care.
There’ve been some disappointing votes, certainly. I didn’t like the flag burning amendment … it’s a stupid issue, a waste of tax money, and oh by the way, the government should keep its damn hands off my political speech. But I know that voting against it would’ve made some wonderful commercials for Bouchard. And it’s even possible that she really believes that flag-burning is inflammatory speech that should not be protected, which would mean that it was a vote of conscience, not of political calculation.
How abut that bankruptcy bill? I hated that one. Seems to me, that bankruptcy bill will hurt more Americans than this torture bill. I’ve felt the oppression of debt. I know what it’s like to be sick and uninsured, and to recover from a long illness only to be suffocated by medical bills after not being able to work for 15 months. But I also remember when my parents took out a bank loan to hire a contractor, so that they could finally build their dream home. That contractor took their money and a few months later filed for bankruptcy. My mom had to write a check every month to pay for that loan. What did that contractor have to pay? Not one dime. My mom died a few years later, without ever getting her house. Our bankruptcy laws had to be reformed. Is it the perfect law? Is the way I would have written it? No. But you can’t have everything that you want.
Some people are issue voters … abortion, gay marriage, the war, and yes, torture. Maybe torture is your issue. Maybe that is how you will decide your vote. I think it’s a mistake to withhold your vote from Debbie because of this issue, but everyone has to vote according to his conscience. Hopefully for you, things like education, public health, and the environment don’t also weigh on your conscience.
As for the things being said at MichLib and DailyKos, I am disappointed in my peers. I learned a long time ago that what I put on my blog will be used against me. My political opposition will find it, they will remember it, and at the right time they will turn it on me or my friends. I’ve learned to choose my words more carefully. I’ve learned that somewhere between “partisan hack” and “oh-so-rosy” is a middle ground that works just fine. I don’t get it right often enough, but at least I’ve learned to try.
One would think I also would have learned not to speak up against my friends. I remember begging my fellow Democrats to stand up and do something about the election fraud in 2004, and being told by my friends and colleagues that I was a cry-baby and a sore loser. That hurt. To this day, I cannot believe a fellow Democrat would not speak out against the disenfranchisement of hundreds of thousands of voters. I remember standing up at a Shiawassee Dems meeting and saying “you can’t just raise minimum wage”, and the crowd responded by telling me that I “hate the little guy”. That hurt too, considering that only 1 year before, these same people were telling me I was a cry baby for standing up for the little guy’s right to vote. I’ll remember my time on MichLib when I tried to defend Debbie Stabenow.
But there are other things that I remember, that mean more to me than being on the ugly end of angry words. I remember what it was like to be living moment to moment, hand to mouth, trying to keep myself in college and keep my little brother out of a foster home. Thank God for Social Security and the people who protect it. I remember Debbie walking up to my grandfather at a union dinner. She called him by his name, having remembered it from a previous meeting. She talked to him for a few minutes about how wonderful he and his fellow strikers are. That meant a lot to my grandfather. I remember Debbie standing outside the Shiawassee County Pasta & Politics fundraiser, waiting very patiently (considering her schedule) for my crappy little bfe radio station to get its shit together so that I could have a 90 second interview with her. And oddly enough, I remember Debbie’s voting record too.
Debbie still has my support and my loyalty. I’m not going to throw her to the wolves as quickly as the rest of you. If you think that means I approve of torture, or that I’m a paid staffer, or what else, that’s ok. I’m also a cry baby who hates the little guy.
Related post on Daily Kos.
12 Responses to “I Approve Of Torture”
By JordanLFW on Sep 30, 2006 | Reply
The Democrats lost this vote before Debbie cast her Aye vote. Harry Reid, Dick Durbin, and Debbie Stabenow can count to 50.
Michael Bouchard is a Sherriff. Coming out on the wrong side of this bill costs Stabenow. Bouchard is wayyy behind right now, why cast a vote that puts this race in play? Bouchard stays 22 points down, Debbie doesn’t have to spend as much, this seat stays Dem, and Debbie can send money to other committees that need the cash.
I’m sure she would’ve voted Nay if we could’ve whipped a couple more with her. But we couldn’t, so why give Bouchard a way to attack her?
By Charles Gaba on Sep 30, 2006 | Reply
You can argue this the other way as well, however.
Stabenow voted yes for one of two reasons: Either she truly approves of suspending the Constitution and pissing all over human rights, OR she felt that voting NO would, as Jordan notes, risk her losing to Bouchard.
However, as you also noted, she holds a solid lead over Bouchard. This isn’t a 50/50 Dem-in-Red-State-territory situation where she absolutely must suck up to the GOP voters. She’d lose a couple percentage points at the absolute most if she had done so. Ironically, she may very well lose the same couple of percent of votes by voting YES–I for one simply cannot vote for her at this point. I won’t vote for Bouchard, but I can no longer vote for Stabenow either, and I know of a few others who feel the same way.
The bottom line is that if she was so concerned about the effect her vote would have on her reelection campaign, she had a third choice: She could have at least voted to abstain. She didn’t choose to do this–she voted specifically in *favor* of the bill.
Oh, and by the way, Christine, I for one do NOT think that you or anyone else “support torture” by voting for Stabenow, but your laundry list of Stabenow’s voting record, as impressive as it may be, is irrelevant. We aren’t talking about flag burning here. We aren’t talking about the minimum wage, or bankruptcy law, or social security or other economic issues. This isn’t even the abortion debate, as important as that is. These are all important issues to be sure, which effect many people deeply.
This is different. This is about granting the authority to a single individual the right to arrest, imprison and torture anyone else that he feels like without any accountability for doing so. That’s called facism, by definition, and it’s now been given both houses of Congress’ official legal blessing.
By Tina J on Sep 30, 2006 | Reply
I agree with you whole-heartedly Christine. I was terribly disappointed in the vote, but this morning I saw the first of, I am sure will be many, attack ads against Debbie. I cannot help but think that if she had voted against this bill, it would have been issue for them to attack her, and her record is so much more than this vote. I am tired of the Republicans using fear to sway votes; I am tired of hearing that Democrats are soft on terror, soft of defense and soft on protecting the homeland. I do fear that this is yet another example of allowing the opposition to define us.
I don’t know about the rest of you, but I can’t remember when I started allowing the Conservative Right/Republicans to define me. It wasn’t this definite turning point in my life or a huge crisis of faith or personal accountability.
I only know that at some point in my adult life, I have allowed others to take my position(s), i.e. gay rights, the right to choice, protection of our most vulnerable and turn them into something ‘dirty’. Just like the term liberal…. it is not a nasty word. I have sat by and allowed myself to become soft-spoken, timid and fearful of the repurcussions of my opinions and values. I have allowed myself to be told that my form of Christianity or spiritual self is less than appropriate or less valuable than those who use fear, hatred, supression or guilt.
Well, no more. I will be defined by my actions, my deeds and my conscience. I know that the values I hold to not only sit right by me, but help others. I know that my position on protection of the less vulnerable is far more Christ-like than the damnation of an entire part of our population because of their sexual orientation. I know that from now on, when someone opposes by opinions or tries to de-value my fellow Democrats, I WILL stand up and be accounted. I WILL voice opposition. I WILL tell them they are wrong and point out the reasons why.
It’s not that I believe I can change their positions, but I don’t want them to believe they have a hold over mine either.
As Edward R. Morrow said: The truth is so naked that people feel sorry for it and try to cover it up, at least a little bit.
Let’s Get Naked!!!
Tina
PS sorry for the length. Just got on a roll.
By Charles Gaba on Sep 30, 2006 | Reply
“I can’t remember when I started allowing the Conservative Right/Republicans to define me.”
You’re contradicting your own claim here.
EITHER Stabenow voted YES because she truly agrees with what this bill legalizes–torture and suspension of due process–in which case she truly is no better than any Republican…
…OR she only voted yes because she was afraid of being labeled “weak on terror” for voting her conscience. This is the VERY DEFINITION of “letting others define you.”
By Tina J on Sep 30, 2006 | Reply
I was talking about myself personally. Debbie voted the way she voted, and while I don’t agree with her vote, I back her right to try and represent me the best way possible.
I applaud you if you have never felt the pressure that I have felt. I respect that you were stronger than I and stood by your convictions in the face of constant ridicule for your opinions or beliefs. I was merely stating how I felt and how some of my fellow citizens have felt in the Conservative County which I live.
We are small in numbers here in Shiawassee County, but big in heart. I am trying, like Christine, to help boost our contemporories and let them know they are not alone, and their opinions and values DO stand for something. Even if you are ostracized or challenged at every turn.
So, while I admit that the written word is easily misinterpreted, taking the statement that I made about MYSELF and telling me that I am contradicting myself regarding Debbie Stabenow is not my intent.
I don’t need to speak for her, as well as I don’t need someone speaking for me.
Tina
By Tina J on Sep 30, 2006 | Reply
Oh, and I didn’t write here to respond to you originally Charles. I was writing my own comment and when I posted it, it went up right after yours. I hadn’t read it yet.
I just wanted to make clear that I was not rebutting your statement or your opinion. I think you make very valid points, and I agree with part of what you are saying too.
I am glad that there are places for these kinds of exchanges of ideas.
By Charles Gaba on Sep 30, 2006 | Reply
Tina–
Thanks for clearing up those points.
As I stated above, unlike others Christine refers to, I do *not* believe that she is “supporting torture” by continuing to support Stabenow. I’m not going to attempt to convince anyone other than myself not to vote for her, and I’m certainly not supporting Bouchard.
I’m just saying that everyone has a line, and *for me*, torture and suspension of habeas corpus is that line.
By Kristi on Oct 1, 2006 | Reply
Christine,
I agree with you. I as well do not support torture, and I agree with you about not throwing Debbie to the wolves. That would be very Republican. We see them do it all of the time. She has always been on the same side of my household when there have been votes that directly effect it and I am grateful.
Tina, thank you for your passion and honesty. The only way in this conservative county we are going to make a difference is if we stop being afraid to be honest with our friends and neighbors about where our convictions are. I live in BFE, surrounded by rednecks with guns and 4X4’s who will shoot at anything. (this summer adults were arrested for shooting up a road sign because they ran out of things to kill.) These are the same folks that voted for the Shrub and Darth, and yet benefit from the government programs that they are trying to eliminate. But this year I will not be afraid to but a sign in my yard, it will give them something to shoot at, but at least I will have my pride.
By christine on Oct 1, 2006 | Reply
@Charles, I think that to abstain from the vote would have been disasterous. GOPers already call her “do nothing Debbie”. Personally, I have more respect for someone who casts a vote that I do not like, rather than abstain. It’s just one of those things with me … I hate it when politicians abstain. We see it here in Shiawassee all the time with our local folks, like Jerry “do nothing” Walden. So if Debbie did that I’d be even more disappointed. She wouldn’t have lost my support though.
There is a difference between not being able to vote for someone, and wanting that person to lose her seat. I totally respect the position you are taking, and the fact that you were able to articulate it without regurgitating a bunch of negative stuff that distorts her record and would also convince other people to vote against her.
@Tina, I think you are right that this would’ve been used against her. Bouchard already said that he would’ve voted the same way she did, but that she did it for the political effect (http://www.lsj.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060930/NEWS01/609300327/1001/news), which tells me that he recognizes that she does not support torture.
By the way we are seeing this same kind of “I would’ve done the same thing” in the Rogers - Marcinkowski race, as Mike Rogers is now parroting Jim’s message. I touched on that a little bit in Rogers Decoded (http://christinebarry.com/2006/09/23/rogers-decoded/)
@Kristi, you are right (if I understand you correctly) that this county has a goofy definition of what “strength” is. If you can shoot at something, that makes you strong. Violence makes you strong on terror. Hate your neighbor but don’t forget to say grace. (ok I jacked that from “eve of destruction” but it’s totally valid, thank you)
Nevertheless I do love this county and the people in it. I think the long-term success of Bus Spaniola demonstrates that if we do stand up and show confidence in our ideology (as Tina talks about in her comment), as well as show the people that we genuinely care about them, then we’ll start winning the “hearts and minds” of the people.
(No comparison to “W the Destroyer” intended.)
whew! long comment.
By ursula on Oct 2, 2006 | Reply
I don’t know why you are even talking to those assholes over at michigan liberal.
By christine on Oct 2, 2006 | Reply
They’re not assholes, they’re just upset.